Proposed Response The Mutual Assisstance Agreement, 1458

Lance68har wrote:

Yes people have deep seeded mistrust, there's no ignoring that fact. We can't just pretend we're all going to give that up overnight and find some magical unity. It's going to take time to build that trust up. In the short term though we all need to prove we're trustworthy . . .

Isn't that what treaties are for? It's a mutual pact two parties make that they will respect each other and even take care of the others needs.

Lance68har wrote:

That's a start, but for long term cooperation we need more continued support. I don't mind having Galloway and Ayr's ship production limited as long as there is also a clause that both counties will come to Galloway's aid, when invaded by England. I wouldn't mind maintaining two banners, ready to rally, in exchange for some food. I wouldn't mind donating goods to help Glasgow produce ships, as long as they protected our ports in good faith.

Hypothetically I'm in favor. Of course I'd want to get a consensus from my council on any agreement.

Lance68har wrote:

Why not make Arden, Lanark, Largs, Muirkirk, Girvan, and Wigtown demilitarized zones and agree on a non-aggression pact?

I can't help but notice that is every town we have with the exception of Ayr town. We don't have much of a population for army raising and definitely not for attacking, so why would our limits be so stringent?

Lance68har wrote:

I understand the logic behind closing the Glasgow border, but that doesn't promote unity. Galloway doesn't have closed borders and it's not like we have a ton of problems with robbers, rogue CC lists, or people trying to undermine what we're doing.

I see both sides of that coin. Of course our only problems are economic crimes that are hard to prosecute. This is exacerbated by our location. Namely people can commit a crime and be long gone the next day and we wouldn't even know which road they took out.

Lance68har wrote:

We can't even do a simple judicial pact because Fury fears being prosecuted in other counties and not having a safe haven in Glasgow. But honestly what do you lose by giving it a try? So someone breaks the treaty and prosecutes you. You lose 100.00 pounds and finally see people's true colors. You want people to trust you, well you've got to place some trust in the rest of Scotland as well.

Aye.

Lance68har wrote:

If you want to build trust we need to lend some REAL support to each other. Not just empty promises in this discussion. Yes, it requires all parties to let their guard down a little, Galloway, Ayr, Glasgow, and Fury. In an ideal world Galloway wouldn't want to attack Glasgow because Glasgow is guarding their ports. Glasgow wouldn't want to attack Galloway or Ayr, because we'd just invade them, and Ayr would be lending supplies to both counties, so why would it declare war on either of them?

Once again our central location gives us the ability to act as a center of trade and commerce, a place to buy carts and a place that is always hospitable.

Lance68har wrote:

But that's what it comes down to, are any of the counties willing to make some sacrifices to accomplish great things like that? If not, so what, we can remain completely autonomous and tend to ourselves, like we have been doing.

That's not my preference obviously. When a criminal commits a grave injustice other counties should try the case when asked to. We need to support each other for many reasons.

I should hope we won't live independently forever with no trust, trade or commerce to speak of.. That's a sad statement for Scotland.

Anytime I hear them talking 'bout protecting their ports I end up like this -->

Seriously, nae yins gonna attack unless they step on someones toes, tha' fact their thinking 'bout tha' need ta' protect 'em suggest they might be getting geared ta' punch someone

First and last rule: do not trust Glaswegians.

Demilitarized zones? Why not ask us to send all our goods and money their way. Judicial treaty? Fine, start with handing over Fury. Honestly, this garbage isn't worth our time.

Ayr would have the most Demilitarized as we're bang snag in the middle. Of course we'd have the most Demilitarized sites, but if that means they also have to keep their armies away, hell it's worth it.

At the moment I'm trying to wrangle a non-aggression pact out of Glasgow's new duke. If that's possible, I see no reason why we would need a standing army; even if Glasgow went back on it, who would come off worse in the eyes of the people? Also, do you suspect that Galloway would still be in favor of Glasgow if they attacked for no Jah damn reason? Of course not.

So, if we kept Ayr army free, if we were attacked, we'd still come off better looking than both Glasgow and Galloway.

If you can do that Thomas it would be so great. Remmi wrote to Barerose and he didn't even reply. That kind of didn't start our relations off too well. Don't you agree?

Lance68har wrote:
Yes people have deep seeded mistrust, there's no ignoring that fact. We can't just pretend we're all going to give that up overnight and find some magical unity. It's going to take time to build that trust up. In the short term though we all need to prove we're trustworthy . . .


Truer words haven't been spoken. Unity can't be forced, can't be rushed just because some folk are bored and wanting something to do like write treaties and argue over them. Leave off the fodder for argument for a while is my suggestion. We've no quarrel currently with either of our neighbors. Let's allow that to settle in, give it the chance to take hold rather than keep scratching at scabs.

I agree with Tommie about the army, too. We're better off without an army at the moment. Raising an army isn't necessary and would only be more fuel for the fire that is Scotland.

Very well. We will raise no army for the time being, but we will raise one in my term. Ayr can't continue to be soft and innocent forever.

We're no longer a victim and I refuse to act like a wounded county.

For now we'll work on the economy and on recruiting people to our pleasant county. While Glasgow and Galloway fight we are the perfect vacation spot.

I'm not in favour of raising an army for the hell of it. However, we have been attacked for the hell of it in the past - quite literally. I see no reason to expect different in the future. Remmi, please keep in mind that while we just might hold our own defensively, offensively we wouldn't stand a chance.

Remmi wrote:

Very well. We will raise no army for the time being, but we will raise one in my term. Ayr can't continue to be soft and innocent forever.

We're no longer a victim and I refuse to act like a wounded county.

For now we'll work on the economy and on recruiting people to our pleasant county. While Glasgow and Galloway fight we are the perfect vacation spot.

Give me one reason as to why we would waste money, which quite frankly could go to better use, to set up an unneeded army? Sure ya want to make Ayr look big and strong right? So...... DO IT ECONOMICALLY!!

Wi' Glasgow out on the fritz, the last thing we need is to set up an army, they see an army of our's, they'll think we're going to help those morons who set up the first two. Ayr is in the middle of Scotland, we neither need to defend our boarders from the english, or our ports as Ayr seems quite friendly wi' 'em.

So again, give me on good reason other than to take our mine back.

We only need to pay for the food of the captain. It doesn't cost us anything to raise an army flag.

Only pay to feed the Captain when he can't work as long as he's holding the flag? That's a lot to ask of one person, dontcha think? Anyway, paid or not, I still vote no army at this time.

Even the captain needs to hire points in order to build an army. Furthermore, just getting that flag means very little if we don't have squads ready to join. If anything, a moblisation should start with forming up armed patrols who could join the flag upon its creation.

I just said we wouldn't raise a flag. You not reading what I wrote?

So we don't get an army in this term. I would not be devastated. I'm running for duke again I think, so we'll do it later, when we need it for the mine.

We just have to go with the current circumstances.

Purely theoretical debate, my lord.